Conversation in Cybernetics  /  Module Three of Seven

Module Three · Glanville & the Design Conversation

The Conversation at the Drawing Board

In Module One a learner conversed with a machine; the exchange needed two participants. Now meet the strangest case in the series: a designer alone at a desk, sketching — and conversing all the same. Ranulph Glanville, Pask's own student, spent a career arguing that design and cybernetics are two sides of one coin, joined by conversation. His claim, in his own voice, is the spine of this module: there is the person who draws, and the person who looks — the same person, and yet two.

Anchoring caseA designer sketching, alone Core conceptDesign as conversation Cybernetic lineageGlanville, after Pask
The Case

Glanville, Oslo, October 2014

It was his last keynote. Ranulph Glanville — architect, composer, cybernetician, and once Gordon Pask's doctoral student at Brunel — stood before a room of design researchers and announced that he was going to talk, in fact, about conversation, because conversation is the bridge between cybernetics and design.1 Then he did something the whole module turns on: he asked the room to imagine a conversation with only one person in it.

Watch · The case, in his own voice Ranulph Glanville, How Design and Cybernetics Reflect Each Other — his final keynote, Relating Systems Thinking & Design 3, Oslo School of Architecture and Design, 15 October 2014. The opening minutes carry this module's whole thesis: a minimal conversation is between two people, yet a designer alone has one too — with the drawing, and with the other self who looks. Filmed by Thomas Fischer; American Society for Cybernetics channel.
What happens

A designer puts a mark on paper. She steps back and looks — and in looking, she is no longer the one who drew. The drawing answers her: it shows consequences she did not fully intend, possibilities she had not seen. She replies with another mark. Back and forth it goes — propose, look, respond — until something emerges that neither the first intention nor the blank page contained.

Glanville's point is that this is not like a conversation. It is one. The designer has split into two participants — the maker and the observer — and the drawing is the medium through which they reach an agreement that neither held at the start. Design, he insisted, is a circular, conversational process; conversation is a requirement for design, even when you are alone with a pencil.2

Notice what has happened to the case form of this series. In the rainforest, the loop ran through clouds and trees; in the murmuration, through thousands of birds. Here the loop runs inside a single skull — and is still, recognisably, the same cybernetic shape: act, observe the return, act again. That is the discovery Glanville carried out of Pask's laboratory and into the studio.


The Concepts

What the case is made of

Four ideas carry this module, and each entails the next. The first two come straight from Module One; Glanville's contribution is to turn them on design and, in doing so, on cybernetics itself.

Concept 1 — carried from Module One

A conversation can run within one person. Pask's P-individual was never the same as the body. So two P-individuals — the maker and the observer — can inhabit one designer. The drawing lets them converse: one proposes, the other reads back what was really proposed.3

Concept 2 — entailed by 1

Design is conversation; cybernetics is its science. If interaction involves goals, feedback and learning, then the science of that interaction is cybernetics — and design, being exactly such an interaction, rests on it. Glanville's formula: design and cybernetics are not merely connected, they are two sides of one coin.4

Concept 3 — the reflexive turn

Second-order cybernetics: the observer is inside. Treat the outside cycle of the observer the same way as the interior cycle of the system — that move, Glanville said, is the origin of second-order cybernetics. The designer cannot stand outside her drawing; she is a participant in the loop she is studying. So is the cybernetician. So are you, reading this.5

Concept 4 — the ethic that follows

“Fail again. Fail better.” Because the drawing keeps returning answers you did not expect, design proceeds by trying, mis-stepping, and trying again — not by executing a plan. Glanville borrowed Beckett's line as the title of his best-known essay: error is not failure of the method, it is the method. The conversation works precisely because the other can surprise you.6

Why this matters for the whole series

Glanville is the hinge. He took his first doctorate in cybernetics under Pask, and a second — on architecture and language — through the same Brunel Centre for the Study of Human Learning that gives us Module Two.7 He sits at the crossing of the theory and its human practice, and he is the figure who carries Pask's conversation outward: to architecture (Module Four), and toward the social-scale design conversations of Banathy, Warfield and Christakis (Modules Five and Six). When he made conversation “the bridge,” he was naming the bridge this entire series walks across.

Conversation is the bridge between cybernetics and design. Ranulph Glanville, RSD3, 2014
The Mesh

The four concepts, drawn as a loop

This module's entailment mesh is itself a conversation: the four concepts circle, and the return arc — observer back to maker — is the feedback that makes a sketch into a dialogue.

the maker 1a · PROPOSES the observer 1b · READS BACK the drawing THE MEDIUM design = cybernetics 2 · ONE COIN second order 3 · OBSERVER INSIDE fail better 4 · THE ETHIC

The mesh of Module Three. The green arc from observer back to maker is the conversation's return — the loop that turns a sequence of marks into a dialogue. The dashed edge marks an alternative reading: you can enter the loop at “fail better” just as well as at “the maker.”

entails  ·  mutually entails  ·  | alternatives (dashed)


Teachback Challenge

Now you rebuild it — with a pencil

This module's teachback is also an experiment you run on yourself. You will need paper and something to draw with. The point is not the drawing; it is noticing the conversation while it happens.

Serialist path — one move at a time
  1. Draw any simple thing — a chair, a room, a route to work. One quick mark.
  2. Stop. Look, and write down one thing the drawing told you that you did not intend — a consequence, an awkwardness, a possibility.
  3. Respond to it with a second mark. Then explain, in a sentence, who just spoke to whom: which of you proposed, which read back.
  4. Now teach the idea back: state why this counts as a conversation in Pask's and Glanville's sense, not merely “thinking while drawing.”
Holist path — the whole loop first
  1. In one paragraph, explain to a friend why Glanville says a lone designer is still having a conversation — and why that makes design a branch of cybernetics.
  2. Then identify the second-order move hidden in your paragraph: where did you, the explainer, become a participant rather than an outside describer?
  3. Test the “fail better” ethic against your own experience: name one time a drawing, draft, or plan surprised you into a better idea. That surprise is the other participant talking.
  4. Say which path — serialist or holist — you used here, and whether it matched how you actually design.
In Your Place

You are already two

Glanville's quiet, radical claim is that you are never quite alone when you make something. The writer reads back the sentence; the cook tastes the pot; the gardener steps back from the bed. In each case a single person has split into a maker and an observer, and the work between them is a medium they converse through. Once you have seen it, you cannot unsee it.8

So this week, catch yourself mid-making — at the keyboard, the stove, the workbench, the spreadsheet — and notice the turn: the moment you stop proposing and start reading back what you actually did. That turn is the conversation. Glanville would say it is also the moment you are doing cybernetics, whether or not you call it that. Carry the question into Module Four, where Christopher Alexander asks whether a whole language of such conversations can be shared — so that the buildings we make together can be alive.

Notes & References

  1. Ranulph Glanville, “How Design and Cybernetics Reflect Each Other,” keynote, Relating Systems Thinking & Design 3 (RSD3), Oslo School of Architecture and Design, 15 October 2014. Video (filmed by Thomas Fischer) on the American Society for Cybernetics channel; transcript published in the RSD3 proceedings.
  2. Glanville (2014), and R. Glanville, “Try Again. Fail Again. Fail Better: The Cybernetics in Design and the Design in Cybernetics,” Kybernetes 36, no. 9/10 (2007): 1173–1206 — “design is a circular, conversational process.”
  3. On the P-individual as distinct from the body, and the possibility of conversation within one person, see Module One; G. Pask, Conversation, Cognition and Learning (Amsterdam: Elsevier, 1975).
  4. P. Pangaro & H. Dubberly, “Cybernetics and Design: Conversations for Action,” in T. Fischer & C. M. Herr, eds., Design Cybernetics: Navigating the New (Cham: Springer, 2019), drawing on Glanville’s “two sides of one coin.”
  5. Glanville (2014): “treat the outside cycle of the observer the same way as the interior cycle… the origin of second-order cybernetics.” Cf. H. von Foerster, Observing Systems (Seaside, CA: Intersystems, 1981).
  6. Glanville, “Try Again. Fail Again. Fail Better” (2007); title after Samuel Beckett, Worstward Ho (1983).
  7. Glanville took a PhD in cybernetics under Pask (Brunel, 1975) and a second PhD on architecture and language at Brunel’s Centre for the Study of Human Learning (1988); see Module Two.
  8. Glanville develops the maker/observer split across The Black Bøx, 3 vols. (Vienna: Edition Echoraum, 2009–2014); cf. D. Schön, The Reflective Practitioner (New York: Basic Books, 1983), on the designer’s “conversation with the materials.”
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